tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17185944.post5240658713882571562..comments2023-10-30T04:04:00.692-05:00Comments on Process of Illumination: Hybrid Officiating: The Degnan SystemHhhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01619039249146075142noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17185944.post-87160354455036259642008-10-14T13:31:00.000-05:002008-10-14T13:31:00.000-05:00well i cant do anything productive untill i get up...well i cant do anything productive untill i get up in one of them board seats now can i there h. but hey, i'm doin just as much, if not more than, the next guy by challenging the upa and their methods constantly.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17185944.post-6839622833901065222008-10-14T09:48:00.000-05:002008-10-14T09:48:00.000-05:00As for you actually doing anything productive or f...As for you actually doing anything productive or furthering the sport in any way...well, "Mission Accomplished", but think air craft carrier and flight suit.Hhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01619039249146075142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17185944.post-76128142372011317322008-10-14T09:46:00.000-05:002008-10-14T09:46:00.000-05:00good point hector.....so why in the fuck is your b...good point hector.....so why in the fuck is your boy degs offering this proposal at this juncture.....that dumbfuck, dosent he know nationals is in two weeks?<BR/><BR/>as for me annoying you.....mission accomplished!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17185944.post-86517278639684376202008-10-13T18:45:00.000-05:002008-10-13T18:45:00.000-05:00Obviously not Toad. Why would we practice a exper...Obviously not Toad. Why would we practice a experimental way of playing the game when Nationals will be played in two weeks by a very different set of rules?<BR/><BR/>You are an annoyance, nothing more.<BR/><BR/>HhHhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01619039249146075142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17185944.post-77560694380563354152008-10-13T17:21:00.000-05:002008-10-13T17:21:00.000-05:00WELL NOW THAT THE TOURNY IS OVER I'LL ASSUME YOU'L...WELL NOW THAT THE TOURNY IS OVER I'LL ASSUME YOU'LL BE GIVING IT A SHOT AT YOUR NEXT PRACTICE???Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17185944.post-15090904746259894882008-10-13T14:05:00.000-05:002008-10-13T14:05:00.000-05:00I would like to try it -- sooner rather than later...I would like to try it -- sooner rather than later. I couldn't post this comment earlier because I had an actual tournament to attend, something you're unfamiliar with recently.degshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17707861614766432857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17185944.post-19548797205487971652008-10-13T09:00:00.000-05:002008-10-13T09:00:00.000-05:00yep......just what i thought.yep......just what i thought.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17185944.post-60199442949686928232008-10-12T07:44:00.000-05:002008-10-12T07:44:00.000-05:00so degnan......hows your little hybrid officiating...so degnan......hows your little hybrid officiating system working out? You are gonna actually TRY it out in real life with real people, right? I mean you werent just falppin your jaw about all this stuff were ya? Or is it that youve done the "thinkin it up" aspect of its developement and now you are waitin for SOMEONE ELSE to pick up the ball and run with it. If thats the case than why even bring it up to begin with?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17185944.post-73878210824891776052008-10-11T09:00:00.000-05:002008-10-11T09:00:00.000-05:00JACKSON....you ask how? think it up and go fuckin...JACKSON....you ask how? think it up and go fuckin do it, thats how! Prior to experimenting with refs (pre NUA comp) i simply rounded up a few friends and went out and officiated a uncw inter squad scrimmage. ITS THAT EASY!!!!<BR/><BR/>whats the sense in proposing ANYTHING when no one is willing to make the personal efforts to get off there ass and go try it? <BR/><BR/>people have been discussin this for YEARS. the time for discussions is over. Put it in to action already.<BR/><BR/>people, or should i say, ultimate people are too lazy, aloof and apathetic to actually do the "work" side of such experimentations. great at the talkin about it part though. Prove me wrong, go experiment with this system at your next practice, THEN lets talk about it, how about. Otherwise you are no different from kramer and his "levels".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17185944.post-29100920668286699932008-10-10T16:48:00.000-05:002008-10-10T16:48:00.000-05:00Toad said: "how about this for a proposal......no ...Toad said: <I>"how about this for a proposal......no more proposals on hybrid ref systems ultil AFTER the proposer goes and experiments with it first hand."</I><BR/><BR/>Toad, please suggest a way to try out a system before proposing it. Wouldn't it need to be proposed so that everyone trying out the system knew how the system is supposed to work? Maybe having these kinds of discussions is exactly what we need before we experiment with a system; so that when we do experiment we have already worked out many of the kinks beforehand. A little thought and preparation can save a lot of work in the end.<BR/><BR/>------<BR/><BR/>I agree with pulse; we should try to implement a rule system that results in the correct call as much as possible. I think this would be a hybrid system with player and ref (observer, third-party, whatever you want to call it) officiation. Who gets to actively make the call should be set in the rules based on who will usually have the better perspective for that call (refs: travels, up/down, etc. -- players: fouls, maybe picks, etc.)Ariel Jacksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17266602567289809609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17185944.post-41589389372928063842008-10-10T16:40:00.000-05:002008-10-10T16:40:00.000-05:00d hunt......there is only one system that is super...d hunt......there is only one system that is superior (thats the one used in all sports, professional and amature), and then there the one that dosent even exist. how can you even lump your fantasy rule enforcement system into the same catagory?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17185944.post-90846205159279848422008-10-10T16:25:00.000-05:002008-10-10T16:25:00.000-05:00Anonymous...A personal foul system would also be a...Anonymous...A personal foul system would also be a deterent to overly aggresive defense. However, I don't see removing players from the game necessary for controling their play style. If we are able to minimize overly aggresive play with yardage penalties then why do we need to remove players from the game? <BR/><BR/>I don't see either system as being superior to another. We will need to experiment with different systems as the game evolves.DHunthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03744734808354238303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17185944.post-1352662444097774902008-10-10T15:23:00.000-05:002008-10-10T15:23:00.000-05:00Part of the reason I wrote up this system before t...Part of the reason I wrote up this system before trying it was to work out some flaws. I'm also not running a tournament anytime real soon. Besides, Toad, you haven't run a tournament since gas was less than a dollar a gallon... you're the one excreting hot air.degshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17707861614766432857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17185944.post-77555543602715516042008-10-10T13:27:00.000-05:002008-10-10T13:27:00.000-05:00the worst part of degs proposal is that its nothin...the worst part of degs proposal is that its nothing but hot air......just like all these and similar idiot wind proposals.<BR/><BR/>how about this for a proposal......no more proposals on hybrid ref systems ultil AFTER the proposer goes and experiments with it first hand.<BR/><BR/>but yes gambler, i agree that such a system would get quite messy and have too many variables. The simpleist way to deal with it(game management and rule enforcement in sports) is just give all the power to the 3rd party. why is this not obvious to you people?<BR/><BR/>On a different note gambler, i never got a response from you on my comment concerning your teams apprarent lack of knowledge of the offsides rule while you guys were competeing at worlds. care to comment?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17185944.post-82120827041444678102008-10-10T13:13:00.000-05:002008-10-10T13:13:00.000-05:00dhunt.....you seem to be saying that tmfs were a g...dhunt.....you seem to be saying that tmfs were a good deterant in keeping players from being overly aggressive on the mark. couldnt personal foul limits do the same thing? As for playing thru the ocasional bump, dont ya think they prefer not getting bumped to begin with and simply play through because its to there own disadvantage to stop play. <BR/><BR/>And which is a greater deterant to not playing over aggressively, a yardage penalty(of what proportion?) after how many tmfs (i still dont know why they are even called tmfs to begin with when its just one player misconducting), or the risk of actually fouling out of the game?<BR/><BR/><BR/>so yea, both systems are flawed. And the fact that a bunch of people with very little experience in the field think a system that has really never even been used can, with a straight face, say that it is superior to those that have been used in countless other sports for decades and decades is what makes you guys come accross as a little......well, certifiable.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17185944.post-19902100955665491022008-10-10T13:02:00.000-05:002008-10-10T13:02:00.000-05:00What would the advantage of this hybrid system be ...What would the advantage of this hybrid system be over a system with observers and immediate referral? <BR/><BR/>With the system you proposed, I would imagine some problems with the timing of both the observers and player needing to call "foul" simultaneously. I just don't see how that would be better than IRS where there's an established sequence.Gamblerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18277792064283758274noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17185944.post-47533590131275733592008-10-10T12:52:00.000-05:002008-10-10T12:52:00.000-05:00how do you figure that? i mean, if a ref can miss...how do you figure that? i mean, if a ref can miss a judgement call how is it that an observer cant miss a similar call(when refered to). And how can a fantasy system that has never been tried guarantee anything(other than it being a lot more easily manipulated than a stiff risk/consequense penalty system)?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17185944.post-51119378978477537392008-10-10T12:48:00.000-05:002008-10-10T12:48:00.000-05:00This is similar to the system we ran at Solstice. ...This is similar to the system we ran at Solstice. Active travel calls by the observers and very quick resolution (seconds) when calls were made. The system worked pretty well and most of the players seemed to like the active travel calls. The games moved quickly and the time between pulls was shortened. I don't see the need for more than 2 observers on a field other than linesman, so 4 max. We had maybe one active up/down call the whole weekend of Solstice, but that can change depending on the weekend. <BR/><BR/>As for the "cheap shots" observers have been more pro-active in giving TMFs out early to keep teams in line. At college nationals, excessive fouling on the mark and intentional double teaming decreased when the team had already received a TMF for that violation. And, was almost non-existent when they were handed two TMFs with the fear of yardage penalties. <BR/><BR/>A referee system is not without its flaws also. Active marking fouls can hinder an offense that would normally play through the occasional bump and keep the disc moving.DHunthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03744734808354238303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17185944.post-2211983632108469712008-10-10T11:30:00.000-05:002008-10-10T11:30:00.000-05:00It seems pretty obvious to me - we would like the ...It seems pretty obvious to me - we would like the correct call to be made in every situation, and this system guarantees that more than a pure referee system.The Pulsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08192428373950361896noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17185944.post-20220958428249347622008-10-10T10:33:00.000-05:002008-10-10T10:33:00.000-05:00degs.....i forgot to comment on your closing state...degs.....i forgot to comment on your closing statement about making the referee system "obsolete". Seriously???? <BR/><BR/>Do you and other born again ultimate players that cling to this player envolvement/control dynamic (the way christians cling to their insane "jesus" theory) really think that you can make refs obsolete before they simply take over ultimate (and make sotg obsolete)? And wouldnt that kinda be like these "christians" thinking they could make all other religions obsolete???And are you talking about making them obsolete in other sports too.....or just ultimate?<BR/><BR/>forgive me for being so inquisitive but i just have a hard time understanding what the real motivations are in not just making a clean break from player envolvement altogether.......and it just baffles me so.<BR/><BR/>help me understand degs!!!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17185944.post-30470377005512090842008-10-10T09:30:00.000-05:002008-10-10T09:30:00.000-05:00degs, get a grip dude. Everything you are talking...degs, get a grip dude. Everything you are talking about is complete fantasy and speculation. Basically you are sayin that somthing that YOU thought up, thats NEVER been tried is superior to systems that have been in place and refined for over 100 years. where do you get the ego???(and between the two of us, only one has actually put his theorys to practice......and we both know who that is)<BR/><BR/>falacy 1: "this system has all the advantages of refereed ultimate that i support". how would you EVER get the idea that i am supportive of partial opponents making impartial judgements on each other in the least bit?<BR/><BR/>falacy 2: not caring about penalties. Penalties are the cornerstone of incentive. People will simply break the rules if the incentive isnt there to follow it. Why else would an otherwise "spirited" bunch contstantly break rules that are as elementary as "offsides" to ones that are as vauge as a "bump on the mark" or a "double team"? heres a hint....."because they can".<BR/>With out deterants....whats the since in having (or calling......like on the marker bump)the penalty to begin with.<BR/><BR/>falacy 3: the notion that player envolvement within the rule enforcement system is even remotely the same as a reffed reffed system. Why must you cling to that "player envolvement" dynamic?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17185944.post-57676102014530928512008-10-09T19:59:00.000-05:002008-10-09T19:59:00.000-05:00Look, Toad, this system has all of the advantages ...Look, Toad, this system has all of the advantages of refereed ultimate that you support. I don't care about penalties -- sure, they could be a part of this. This basically <I>is</I> reffed ultimate, but there are 14 players who can make calls in addition to refs.<BR/><BR/>I'm not re-inventing the wheel. I'm making the wheel obsolete.degshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17707861614766432857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17185944.post-85544252896285792322008-10-09T14:58:00.000-05:002008-10-09T14:58:00.000-05:00degs....."people" dont have ANY reservations with ...degs....."people" dont have ANY reservations with ref systems.....its just ultimate players that do (and the minority of em at that, i'de say). And, in reality, it seems like the main reservations are connected with the efforts envolved in managing and payin em.<BR/><BR/>1. people can still take "cheap shots" when they think the refzerver aint lookin just as easy. and whats the big motivation(and your big fear) in even taking a "cheap shot" in the first place when there is a ref (and an attachted risk of severe consequense) over taking one currently with an observer and little to no consequense?(please dont say "because you get ostrasized by your peers")<BR/><BR/><BR/>2. are people penalized for said "bad calls" that are off set by neutral officials? Cause, you know, how can you trust these same people that will take cheap shots with refs not to make bogus calls with refzervers, just so they can kill the mo of the opposing teams?<BR/><BR/>I still dont see why you instist on trying to reinvent the wheel here. If there was a better way to arbitrate sports surley a sport thats been around a helluva lot longer than ultimate AND has a hellofa lot more experience with facilitating, developing and refining its arbatration system would have already thought it up.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17185944.post-74716425127347922862008-10-09T13:24:00.000-05:002008-10-09T13:24:00.000-05:00just trade in sotg for four guys with whistles in ...<I>just trade in sotg for four guys with whistles in striped shirts already, and be done with it.</I><BR/><BR/>Be done with it? You're missing the whole point. If everyone on the field can make active calls:<BR/>1. cheap-shots and 'wait til the ref's not looking' fouls disappear, and<BR/>2. bad calls made by players with a stake in the outcome are off-set by neutral officials.<BR/><BR/>Toad, people have serious reservations with a ref system. My proposal addresses those concerns.degshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17707861614766432857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17185944.post-77071918064620847382008-10-09T11:50:00.000-05:002008-10-09T11:50:00.000-05:00ben....spirit scores???? shouldnt they just be ni...ben....spirit scores???? shouldnt they just be nixed altogether? Why not use that time energy and effort critiquing the accuracy and effeciency of the observers and the rules rather than critiquing each others spirit.<BR/><BR/>i see where you are coming from though......spirit(bad spirit) should be based on how many shitty calls a team makes....not their attitude or behavior. To which, wouldnt the observers themselves be the better judges of who is and isnt spirited?<BR/><BR/>god damn this sport is fucked up with all this spirit shit!<BR/><BR/>and degs......these hybrid ref/observer people.....theres a name for em....."refzervers". Of course you are proposing that they too would now have powers to initiate foul calls as well. Inching ever closer to complete transition. just trade in sotg for four guys with whistles in striped shirts already, and be done with it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com